Front Disc Brakes

I'm sure other members have had the following experience.
On my trip to Beaulieu the other week I had at least two cars pull out of side roads in front of me as if I wasn't there. I reckon it's because the Elf is so small it looks as if it is a good distance away and will a a few seconds reaching the junction so it's "OK to pull out"?????

Any way, thats another subject.

What I am getting at is the Elf drum brakes gave me a few hair raising second trying to stop in a straight line so I'm thinking of fitting 7.5" Cooper discs and wondered if othe members have done this and is there anything I should watch out for?

Cheers

Im running them on my dad 67 Mini Minor

They also good because you can also fit 12inch wheels if you want to and go back to 10s

Hi Tony

7.5" Cooper S front disc's transform the braking and bring it close to modern day cars. I have them on my Elf and with the increased performance, they are a must.
Additional things you must consider:
1. Remote servo and make sure it is mounted correctly. You will need to connect this to the inlet manifold. Suggest obtaining either a manifold off a later 998cc Mini (1988 onwards) or opting for a "Stage One" kit from Mini Spares and ask for one with a Servo connection. Cooper S Brakes without a servo are dangerous and will probably invalidate your insurance.
2. As the track is wider than the standard Drum Brake set-up, you will need to replace the standard rear drums with the later extended units. You will also need to fit longer wheel studs.
3. Compensating valve. This reduces the pressure to the rear drums to prevent them locking up. Your car may have one of these fitted (usually bolted to the rear subframe).
4. You will need longer front flexible hoses.
5. Make sure you have the bleed nipple at the highest point as you won't be able to clear the air out of the system. Pretty obvious I know but the calipers are handed and can fit either side.

As mentioned earlier, the improvement is quite dramatic but unless you are really going to drive your car hard, I suggest fitting better linings to your existing drums as the cost of all the above bits and pieces can be very expensive.

Good Luck

Andrew

Cheers for that Andrew, some food for thought and a bit more necessary work than I thought, the servo problem for one. I will have to do some more research into that.

Hi Tony

Another thing to add to the shopping list is a new Cooper S Master Cylinder. The reservoir is larger and I believe the bore diameter is different. You could possibly manage with the standard cylinder but I wouldn't be prepared to chance it.

Typical cost assuming you can find some Brake assemblies on eBay,
Brake assemblies fully reconditioned say £400.00 (you may be lucky and managed to find some cheaper).
Remote Servo £120.00
Master Cylinder £60.00
Stage One Kit £170.00
Rear Drums and longer Studs £30.00
Compensating Valve £50.00 (I don't know the cost of this, so its a pure guess)
Various other bits and pieces £50.00
Cost of fitting £120.00, if you can't manage the job yourself.


So as you can see, it is an expensive upgrade.

Question, have you checked to see if you have twin leading shoe brakes on the front as earlier cars were fitting with a single leading shoe arrangement and the brakes were poor at best. I believe these were only fitted to mark 1 cars but can't be totally sure on this. If you have this earlier system, look out for some secondhand later Mini/Elf/Hornet front brake assemblies and this will make a big improvement (the rear brakes stay the same). The beauty of this upgrade is there is no external difference, the swap is simple and straight forward and most important, the cost should be quite low.

Andrew

Yes I have 2 leading shoes each side. Will clean the drums out and adjust them up again. Got a little squeal anyway (They are little pigs to adjust )

Your cheaper alternative is the Fiesta caliper conversion. Get a set of standard Mini discs/hubs etc, get the 8.4" discs machined down to 7.9", and fit Fiesta calipers - 10" wheels will still fit then. It needs a bit of work to make the calipers fit right, but there's plenty of info on the www if you search for it. It's my plan when I get Elfie back on the road; the brakes have worked well enough for me but they are pigs to keep adjusted.

Hi Tony

have a quick read of this - my thoughts on drum brakes

workable drums

we still run drums on the rally car to no great detriment. Competition/uprated drum linings as far as I am aware are not generally available these days - I have to get ours specially made ( BTW I will be putting an order in in the near future if interested - cost is about £68 inc P&P (need to check on this as not ordered for a year or so, and is in exchange for your old shoes)

a couple of other thoughts - to add onto the price list either a set of wheel arches (£30) or a set of S rims to keep them under the arches (£200). (ho and you really need to change the brake peddle as well if fitting discs - it is different to a drum peddle - more leverage and thicker metal)

The other thing to do is drive with your headlights on - makes you look as if you are moving faster and are much more noticeable. Know the feeling about numpties in euroboxes - bain of my life - I reckon a PC Plod needs to drive around in an old car with a camera in it and record all the dangerous maneuvers that happen - oops getting on the soap box again

Gordon

Elf Service wrote:Hi Tony

Cooper S Brakes without a servo are dangerous and will probably invalidate your insurance.

Sorry for digging up a old thread just wondering why they are dangerous without a servo? I ran them on my cooper this way and found them fine i also know it was popular with racers back in the day to ditch them as they proffered the feel of the brakes without the servo

I know a few people who are running round in production minis with discs and no servos. My Studio 2 had a servo and had to stand on the pedal to stop.
Not sure why insurance companys would want to invalidate any insurance where owner has improved the braking.
BTW I now have some ex Coooper 7.5" discs but I have not progressed on the idea apart from stripping the callipers down due to me having a operation. New pistons, seals bleed nipples etc will cost me around £80.
My intention is to remove body from engine and subframe to clean up engine bay and replace various tie bar rubbers,engine gaskets etc for my winter project. (I intend to fit the discs at same time)

Well i can't comment on servo assisted cooper s setups as i have never driven one with a servo, I found mine fine without the servo although most books etc from modern day suggest its hard work to operate the brake pedal i never found this and stopping quick was fine (75 Bhp) and no fade

Only problem i had with mine is that the T peice that links both rear brakes was a standard item not the cooper one and if you braked hard it locked the rears first easy fix though

Hi Tony

I don't have a Servo to operate my "S" discs either - I used to have one mounted under the passenger side dash rail but I kept losing points as wifey laddered her "nylons" on it. Later, I moved it to the original "S" position under the control box but boy did it clutter up the bay - finished up fitting rubber flex pipes to the servo connections so I could swing it out of the way during maintenence - clutch adjusting etc. In the end I totally ditched it as a pain in the a*rse. I didn't really miss it - one just has to push a bit harder but it still stopped pretty good. The best thing I've done since is to scrap the flex hoses to the calipers and wheel cylinders (and the clutch!) and replace them with Goodrich SS braided hoses (Minispares).....I have now every confidence that I can stop when I want to - pedal feel is grande.

I use "Super Minifin" drums (or equivalent at Minisport) on the rear - they came with the extended studs. Next set of wheel bearings will be rollers tho - original style ball races at the moment.

I took advise from the Minispares Website to determine an appropriate size of rear wheel cylinder (i think GWC1129 but I'd have to check) so I could retain my standard rear brake regulator/compensator.

http://www.minispares.com/Articles.aspx?ty=ad&aid=127

See also:

http://www.minispares.com/Articles.aspx?ty=ad&aid=124

I have flared my arches to ensure the fitted Astrali wheels don't upset Mr. Plod and his RTA - they would have stuck out about 2" otherwise. To avoid flares you would need proper "S" wheels - and not the "reverse rim" style.

Can't remember if anyone above mentioned it but I recommend using the "S" steering arms also (heavy duty!) so make sure they come with your bits & pieces.

Cheers

Cheers for that folks. some reading there but I did notice Keith Calvers comments
"Getting the braking system sorted can make the car quicker, as you will be able to to move confidently"

Meaning you will drive faster now you know you can stop quicker!
I suppose thats what Andrew meant by saying "can invalidate your insurance."
Makes Sense now so must have a word with them before advancing any further!

TONYELF wrote:Cheers for that folks. some reading there but I did notice Keith Calvers comments
"Getting the braking system sorted can make the car quicker, as you will be able to to move confidently"

Meaning you will drive faster now you know you can stop quicker!
I suppose thats what Andrew meant by saying "can invalidate your insurance."
Makes Sense now so must have a word with them before advancing any further!

I am told by a reliable source that Mk1 Fiesta assembly and discs are great.

However, I run drums all the way round, and as long as you're brakes are serviced regularly you shouldn't have a problem. After all.... the stopping distance applies to all brakes. The highway code doesn't ask "what is the stopping distance at x miles per hour for a) disc brakes and b) drum brakes?

So drums all the way for me!

Just think, where would Ringo Starr and Phil Collins be wihtout drums???

Jase

TONYELF wrote:Cheers for that folks. some reading there but I did notice Keith Calvers comments
"Getting the braking system sorted can make the car quicker, as you will be able to to move confidently"

Meaning you will drive faster now you know you can stop quicker!
I suppose thats what Andrew meant by saying "can invalidate your insurance."
Makes Sense now so must have a word with them before advancing any further!

Basically any car that is not essentially as it left the factory is considered "modified" by most insurance companies. Things like brake upgrades are not usually an issue; I always declared Harriet as having a disc brake conversion and no insurer ever queried it. Similarly most classic policies will not be affected, as long as you tell them. There are just a few of the big mainstream insurers that will not touch "modified cars" at any cost.

I always found it ridiculous that when daughter Holly asked about fitting a 1275 to her Mini (1992, discs + servo), the insurers said they could not insure her for it, but they could if she bought a Mini that was originally fitted with one! After all there are no other mechanical differences between a 998 car and a 1275.
But that's insurers for you. They have you over a barrel.

Over a barrel? Kinky!

TONYELF wrote:Over a barrel? Kinky!

Better than over the bonnet..... it can damage your chrome!

The Elf went in for it's 2nd MOT and it failed on the hand brake with one advisory Steering column bush worn so not bad I thought?
Back at home Phil (my son) and I took the drums off, blasted the dust out with the air line (carefully of course!) Wire brushed the linings (new,clean bronze wire brush) to ensure no dust left,not to rough the surface up note.
Re assembled the drums and re adjusted the shoes.
It did not seem to be any better so I thought bugger this! and took it back in today.
When on the brake test bed the machine was found to be on a weight 200KG more than the Elf! (the Elf was the last car to be tested the day before)
Need less to say it passed with flying colours

The moral of this thread is. To watch out for this next time yours is due for test as there arn't many (if any) lightweight cars around today as light as a mini.

Well done Im quite lucky i have a very good MOT Tester did you mention the machine settings

No. I said I couldn't understand it as it sailed through last years test and with so little mileage at reasonable speeds with little or no heavy breaking it should have got through. Then they asked what weight the Elf was! They should have looked that up in the first place!
Divvys!
No harm done .I'll know next time.(no charge for re test need I add?)

My tester now uses the old inertia guage in the footwell and does a road test - he doesn't normally wear a belt as he shoots off down the country lane to stamp on the brakes ------ heard a massive screech of locked wheels, follow by him driving back in a few moments later looking rather sheepish and rubbing his nose. parting comment from him "best Bl3$dy mini brakes I've come across, nearly put me through the £$%^%$%^$% windscreen. Needless to say H passed the brake test